VICE President Noli de Castro seems to have turned down proposals for a snap election and for him to break away from President Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo by November 30. In an interview with reporters today, de Castro stood by what he has repeatedly said, that he would stick by the Constitution and the rule of law, and that he would not support anything outside the Constitution.

Over the weekend, religious leaders called for snap elections to resolve the political crisis. The Black-and-White Movement, meanwhile, wanted de Castro to be a transitional president to oversee reforms and new elections, after he breaks away from the Arroyo government. Former social welfare secretary Dinky Soliman, a member of the so-called Hyatt 10 and leader of the Black-and-White Movement, said the group’s decision to force Noli to make a stand is still within the framework of constitutional succession.  "We’re giving him the chance to agree with our reform agenda," Soliman said.  

Part of the Black-and-White Movement’s November 30 ultimatum is also for de Castro to lead the implementation of a wide range of reforms that includes reorganizing the Commission on Elections, where there will be four vacancies by February.

De Castro’s replies have been vague and non-committal. Interviewed by reporters this morning, de Castro described the movement’s leaders as "lubos kong ginagalang at kinikilala (I fully respect and acknowledge)." Still, he said, he hasn’t heard from them yet and had not received any invitation to a meeting, as planned by Black-and-White leaders.

97 Responses to Only option is constitutional — Noli

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ms. bayani

October 24th, 2005 at 7:46 pm

noli de castro has shown the real stuff he’s made off. very very lamentable the kind of leaders we breed in this country…the most disappointing are the responses of prominent personalities and leaders of different sectors regarding the political scandal. for me, the issue against GMA are very clear…they are very very serious charges and they have dire consequences in our efforts to have a better society. if we don’t address this now then…we can not hope to achieve the kind of country we dream to have and at par with our more prosperous neighbors in the next few generations. for the life of me i can not understand what moral suasion one has in saying that we just move on and give GMA a chance. what kind of chance are they talking about??? a grave moral miscounduct was committed by the highest official of the land!!! and she is supposed to be the embodiment of our aspiration as a people. personally, i would not want her to embody my aspirations for our country. just look at the consequences of her “lapse in judgement” in our society right now??? observe the kind of politicians in cahoots with her…aren’t most of them the same people who since marcos up to estrada the same trapos which have kept our country in the bondage of poverty. maybe…the better Filipinos might be those they have branded as “leftists” and “commies” after all.

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ms. bayani

October 24th, 2005 at 7:57 pm

noli de castro has shown the real stuff he’s made off. very very lamentable the kind of leaders we breed in this country…the most disappointing are the responses of prominent personalities and leaders of different sectors regarding the political scandal. for me, the issue against GMA are very clear…they are very very serious charges and they have dire consequences in our efforts to have a better society. if we don’t address this now then…we can not hope to achieve the kind of country we dream to have and at par with our more prosperous neighbors in the next few generations. for the life of me i can not understand what moral suasion one has in saying that we just move on and give GMA a chance. what kind of chance are they talking about??? a grave moral miscounduct was committed by the highest official of the land!!! and she is supposed to be the embodiment of our aspiration as a people. personally, i would not want her to embody my aspirations for our country. just look at the consequences of her “lapse in judgement” in our society right now??? observe the kind of politicians in cahoots with her…aren’t most of them the same people who since marcos up to estrada the same trapos which have kept our country in the bondage of poverty and we thought she was not one of them but we are greatly wrong…she may be the worst of the lot!. maybe…the better Filipinos might be those they have branded as “leftists” and “commies” after all.

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KaBlog

October 24th, 2005 at 10:48 pm

Sa aking opinyon…..

Noli de Castro will not go against to a person who made him win in the last election (fair and square nga ba?). How can he battle GMA if he owe too much from her? He join LAKAS to have a very huge campaign funds to support his candidacy. Bayaran lang ng utang na loob yan kaya kahit alam nya na merong hocus-pocus na nangyayari during election eh di yan magsasalita kasi hawak sya ni GMA sa b____!

He doesn’t have the quality of being a true leader kasi kung sa panahon ngayon mas makikita mo sya sa palda ni GMA rather than taking a stand and join in the clamour of the people who are seeking for the truth and justice.

What can you expect fron him?? Wala! Do you think nasa personality ni Noli de Castro ang hindi maiimpluwensyahan? Eh, kung sa mga Lopezes BOW na yan eh sa mga pulitiko pa kayang sumuporta sa kanya!

What we need is a leader who will inspire the Filipino people to be united to a common cause and not a puppet leader who will always be relying only to his lawyer and advisers just to come up with a solution or answer to a certain issue. Sa tingin ko, ang mga sinasabi ni Noli in any interviews or gatherings did not come from his heart but from his staff who prepares his speeches (kasi di nya kaya!) Ang kaya lang yata ni Noli ay ang magbasa sa teleprompter ng script, doon sa ganong klaseng trabaho bibilib ka sa kanya.

So, yung sinasabi nya na pagsunod nya sa rule of law eh kathang isip na lamang yun kasi kung talagang sumusunod sya sa rule of law ang dapat i-position nya ang sarili nya na mahanap ang kasagutan sa katanungang: SI GMA BA AY NANDAYA, NAGNAKAW AT NAGSINUNGALING? Nasa konstitusyon din ang PUBLIC OFFICE IS A PUBLIC TRUST.

Ang problema sa kanya, mukhang tino-tolerate pa nya ang kadedepensa ng gobyerno at pagko-cover up. Ito ba ang aasahan mo sa “constitutional successor”?? Watdahel, hayyyy…

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mariatoo

October 24th, 2005 at 11:24 pm

i hope they settle loren’s election protest soon, in her favor ha, so we can rid ourselves of this dufus aka jessie andres’ puppet.

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Chabeli

October 25th, 2005 at 12:48 am

The nation’s joke, next to Gloria, is Noli. It seems that he will take the same path as GMA–before EDSA 2, many already felt that GMA should have taken a stand against Erap, yet she kept her mouth shut until after two years because she wanted to run again as president in the 2004 elections. And she did. And this is what the nation got! Gheez! The joke is on us now.

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Toro

October 25th, 2005 at 6:59 am

Alecks, this one’s a bit off the topic, but some food for thought, perhaps you can clear me out on this. A question of free speech.

Why is it that the natives are free to throw heaps of dung against the government, specifically Gloria, but not for those foreigners, Pakistanis I believe, who joined a protest rally. I read they were arrested. Why, is free speech guaranteed only for the natives and not for foreigners? What’s the CHR’s take on this?

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ryebosco

October 25th, 2005 at 8:50 am

Snap elections, black and white movement, White House spies…will the Philippines really change if these mob and paid protesters are given what they are demanding? Bullshit! The country as a whole can’t even prosecute Marcos and their cronies and the mastermind of the assassination of Benigno Aquino. (Those spies are an embarrassment to Filipinos especially in the United States.) To this day, the Marcoses, their heirs, fellow thieves and cronies are living the luxurious life–the fruits of their selfish and evil agenda. Why doesn’t this idiotic Black and White Movement dig deeper as to the root causes plaguing the Philippines?

The Philippines is so polluted and corrupt. The only way to cleanse it is either by a great flood (very much like what God did during Noah’s time) or through a real, absolute revolution (just like the French Revolution where those who deserved to be guillotined were beheaded).

After 20 years of People Power, the country is poorer and more chaotic. Democracy does not work in our country–not in any impoverished nation where the government is run by greedy and selfish politicians and businessmen whose only goal is to enrich themselves. And since these politicians, businessmen and entertainers are somewhat related to each other, those outside of this circle are trapped to serve.

I really think Filipinos fall in 3 classes:
1. The financially secured who don’t give a damn so long as they have money and power.
2. The stupid and dumb majority of the population who let themselves be fooled.
3. The cowards who know they must do something but do not.
Which of these classes do you belong?

The EDSA revolution of 1986 was not a revolution. It was only a changing of the guard. Had that been a real revolution, it would have confiscated the loot of the Marcoses and their cronies; it would have beheaded them. But no, the stupid and dumb majority of Filipinos and the cowards settled to sit back and not take advantage of the situation. Instead, they allowed the cycle to continue. The financially secured before and after 1986 remained in power, in business and in entertainment.

Filipinos are very passive. We only act when it’s too late. We rest on the laurels of the past and the achievements of the few and expect world respect in return. (We brag about our boxing champs, our Miss International and our White House chef, is this the best Filipinos can do?) Well, WAKE UP FILIPINOS! We are a chaotic and poor country. We are corrupt and immature. We are underdeveloped and abused. Unless a real and absolute revolution occurs, we will remain as such. Ridiculed around the world, once the Pearl of the Orient, a beautiful country being run like hell by Filipinos under corruption and chaos.

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ryebosco

October 25th, 2005 at 9:20 am

In addition to my opinion earlier, below is probably what the Black and White organizers are discussing as an alternative to our fucked up country:

FPJ should be the honorary-posthumous caretaker of a transitionary government.

Joseph Estrada (ngayon na gumaling na sa kanyang sakit kasi nabuhay na naman ang kanyang popularidad) should be elected prime-minister effective immediately.

Susan Roces should be the honorary Muse of the inevitable Parliament. She should be the official greeter at the Batasan entrance gate.

Imee Marcos should head the Ministry of Treasury. Heck, her family has a lot of experience in government.

Imelda Marcos should be the Chief Supreme Court justice.

Juan Ponce Enrile should have a statue along Ayala Avenue for being the father of all balimbings.

The Marcos cronies who got away with murders and plunder should receive automatic membership to the new parliament.

Nino Muhlach should be the Palace jester. (“Ninang, ninang, iboboto daw po si ninong ng bagong Parliament kahit na patay na po siya…yeay!!! buhay na naman ang aking ninong.”)

The NPA and Muslim separatist group in the spirit of Reconciliation should be enrolled at the PMA free of charge or should be given free vouchers with Ate Glow’s face printed on them.

The Philippines should rename EDSA street into People Failure and have Cory Aquino’s statue replace the current shrine with an epitaph that reads: Here I stand in Yellow in memory of my dead husband who died in vain, the last hope of the Philippines, long live People Failure!

Kris Aquino should be the new parliament’s Press Secretary. She is very smart and well-experienced even though she has no education. Maganda siya and very funny, besides, Cojuangco siya at bayani ang kanyang tatay na pinatay ng mga taong pabor na palitan ang konstitusyon.

Congressman Arroyo of Pampanga should head the commission to revive Philippine Cinema.

Nora Aunor should head the anti-drug traffic campaign.

Danding Cojuangco should head the Makati Business Club.

Marcos’ grandson, Borgy Manotoc, the celebrated male model now, should walk around naked to win the votes of the bakya and bakla crowd in order to successfully pass the new Parliament idea. Have a giant poster of him in a bench bikini to attract tourism and investment in the country.

Gloria Arroyo, in her spirit of Reconciliation, should be pardoned para masaya ang bayan. ANG SAYA SAYA NO?

The Catholic Church should patrol the streets and bedrooms so that they can promote population boom because we need more starving children under the care of corrupt politicians.

I, on the other hand, will pray for God’s wrath and hope a major Tsunami cleanses the Philippines.

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tongue in, anew

October 25th, 2005 at 9:47 am

Hey, get back to your straitjacket! pssst! hoooy! :)

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Toro

October 25th, 2005 at 10:26 am

There’s quite a spirited exchange of ideas in this blog on ways to get rid of Gloria. (Isn’t this country lucky the people can plot to overthrow a president/govt and not get arrested for subversion?) But let me count the ways. There are only two ways to bring down Gloria’s government and these are the constitutional and extra-constitutional. The latter is not prescribed by law and therefore illegal.

So, before anyone draws the script on how to go about it, consider first which of the two will bring the best results that will give the most benefit and bring lasting peace to all. Obviously, anything outside the constitutional way will not. People who wanted a quick fix on national problems have done enough damage to the country and to themselves. Drawing a sizeable crowd to the streets has not been an effective solution like what happened to the so-called people power. Those have been wasted opportunities. Neither can those invoking snap elections, resignations, a military junta, restore Erap, etc., even charter change, can guarantee that the problems besetting the country today will go away. No, the problems will remain for as long as vintages of the old and new corrupt politicos exist. Our political system was doing very well, even reputedly one of the best in Asia, until these rascals came and corrupted it.

It is wishful thinking that GMA and Noli will resign. They will not because they know they stand on strong legal grounds that they are the duly constituted Prez and Vice Prez. Whether any one believes this is irrelevant. Garci’s tapes are meaningless, and unless charges of election fraud against them are validated by the electoral tribunal those too are irrelevant. And even if the impossible happened and Gloria steps down serves no guarantee that the problems will go away. What follows next is almost predictable for as long as the rascals in government and congress remain. Like a centipede, cut off a few feet and hundred more remain.

The bloggers here seem to be searching for a blissful utopian society.
Lest everyone is carried away, better to place feet on the ground and consider other options as well.

Many ideas on charter change have been bruited about. But, little is talked about the Ramos proposal. To many the man maybe unacceptable, but that doesn’t mean he cannot produce sound ideas. Leaving personal prejudices aside, the man’s proposal makes a lot of sense because it answers the objectives that bloggers here are crying for. His proposal calls for an absolute political change from top to bottom. He wants a complete removal of all incumbent officials from President to municipal counselors in an election in June 2006 and a shift to parliamentarian. If one disagrees with the shift then support the former and make a hell of a noise so you can be heard nationwide. One advantage of a parliament headed by a PM is it’s much easier to change a corrupt government by a vote of no confidence and call for reelection. For all you know, people power may become obsolete

Think about it, folks.

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Toro

October 25th, 2005 at 10:43 am

Ryebosco, I’ve just received word that the B & W have taken all your
suggestions under serious advisement. The people you mentioned are being notified of their respective appointments. Hope you feel better now. Ciao.

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Chihiro

October 25th, 2005 at 11:35 am

C’mon. She assumed power unconstitutionally (hello, remember EDSA 2? – no matter what that liar Davide and his band of dishonest justices say, Estrada v. Arroyo is full of sh*t) and now you’re telling us that she can only be removed constitutionally?

Spare us the hypocrisy!

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benign0

October 25th, 2005 at 12:05 pm

Chihiro said,
October 25, 2005 @ 11:35 am
=========
C’mon. She assumed power unconstitutionally (hello, remember EDSA 2? – no matter what that liar Davide and his band of dishonest justices say, Estrada v. Arroyo is full of sh*t) and now you’re telling us that she can only be removed constitutionally?

Spare us the hypocrisy!
=========

I think the bigger hypocrites around here are those who claim to be huge advocates of democracy but then will readily entrust the future of the nation to a small-minded street mob.

Pinoy nga naman talaga… 😀

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gagay

October 25th, 2005 at 12:14 pm

benignO,
ok na sana comment mo, but i would appreciate it if you had completed the sentence. we should entrust our future to _____________________________. pls fill in the blanks. para naman hindi mag sound na blaming lang yung post mo.

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signals

October 25th, 2005 at 12:16 pm

then we should also call for his resignation…

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Toro

October 25th, 2005 at 1:27 pm

Benigno, for once I agree with you.

Chichiro, you want to remove her unconstitutionally? You think it’s that easy when just a handful of you show up at every protest rally? Go do it, what are you waiting for.

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mariatoo

October 25th, 2005 at 1:56 pm

sabi nga ni fr bernas, ultimate power resides in the people. kung magdesisyon ang tao na ayaw na nila si gloria, legal yon.

suggestion lang ha. i quote ko si o’reilly, guys, be “pithy”. nobody wants to read a thesis here.

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gagay

October 25th, 2005 at 2:34 pm

Maganda sinabi ni former education undersecretary Jose Luis Gascon sa interview nya with ANC :

“When you have a presidency that violates the Constitution, when you have a presidency that stops the impeachment process, which is the preferred constitutional mode, when you have a President that violates the spirit of the Constitution about election and democracy … ultimately the options of extra-constitutional modes which are not unconstitutional become more viable.”

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indio_lawless

October 25th, 2005 at 3:00 pm

Mr. Toro, allow me to respond without prejudice to Aleck’s reply:

While we do have Sec. 1, Art III of the 1987 Constitution which provides equal protection of laws to all persons, however, in the case of Forbes v. Tiaco, 16 Phil 534, the High Court said: The Constitution, as a general rule, places the civil rights of aliens on an equal footing with those of citizens, but their political rights do not enjoy the same protection.

Also, in International Law, the State, as a general rule can determine in what cases and under what conditions it may admit aliens. Said aliens/s accordingly must accept the Institutions of the State as he/she finds them. Consequently, the alien may be deprived of certain rights like freedom of expression in the form of joining rallies. Foreigners can be held administratively or even be deported if they advocated for the ouster of the government.

Clearly, with regard to the recent re-claiming of Mendiola, it can be said gainly that the foreigners (aliens)/- activists are not similarly situated with protesters who are Filipino Citizens (which you termed “natives’, a politically incorrect terminology, Sir) as to the exercise of political rights particularly on the freedom of speech and assembly.

CHR to date, has only stated that there is no legal basis for CPR as well as to the Mendiola ban.

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benign0

October 25th, 2005 at 3:01 pm

mariatoo said,
October 25, 2005 @ 1:56 pm
==================
sabi nga ni fr bernas, ultimate power resides in the people. kung magdesisyon ang tao na ayaw na nila si gloria, legal yon.
==================

Of course, but by delegating that power to REPRESENTATIVES when electing officials to the state’s LEGISLATURE, then *de fact* popular will rests on said legislative officials (i.e. our senators and congressmen).

THAT is democratic process. Street mobs (which in the bizarre logic of the common folk is made up of “people”) provide but a cross-section people’s will, but by no stretch of imagination will EVER be, beyond reasonable doubt, representative of the will of the Filipino people.

mariatoo said,
October 25, 2005 @ 1:56 pm
==================
suggestion lang ha. i quote ko si o’reilly, guys, be “pithy”. nobody wants to read a thesis here.
==================

This is so typical of populist sentiment. The issues that face Philippine society are EXTREMELY COMPLEX, which means they cannot be described in a “pithy” manner. If you want to solve a complex issue but are UNWILLING to understand the complexity by reading thesis-grade articulations of the issue, then sorry to say that you do belong where most of the hollow-heads belong — IN THE STREETS.

ha ha! 😀

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mariatoo

October 25th, 2005 at 3:18 pm

hehe. benign0, noyps na noyps ka rin pala e! namemersonal pag natatamaan. tsk tsk. nga naman ang mga pinoy abroad no? kala mo mas magaling na sila pag nakaalis. hehe.

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mariatoo

October 25th, 2005 at 3:51 pm

yan ba ang natutunan mo , beneign0 from your white masters? ang pagiging bastos? 😉

ay sandali! baka di ako naiintindihan ni benign0 dahil filipino ang ang aking ginagamit and being the white pretender that he is baka kinalimutan na nyang magtagalog. o siya i-translate ko ha, no? 😉

from previous post

hehe, benign0, you are noyps 2x! you insult when you are hit. tsk tsk. it is so like a brown brother who finally gets to have a passport and a visa and is allowed to step foot on foreign soil. you think you are white as nicole kidman. buwahahaha.

suggestion lang ha uli. dont tangle with me, boy, kasi di ako napipikon at mas magaling ako sa iyo mang alaska. pag napuno lang ako, ewan ko ba, people have a way of disappearing suddenly. but so lang as you’re out of the phils, you are safe. buwahaha.

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PopsJ

October 25th, 2005 at 5:45 pm

Mariatoo, ignore mo na lang yan si b..o. Tipo bang everything and everyone is wrong except me and me..’ako na lang ng ako’..buwahaha. .

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indio_lawless

October 25th, 2005 at 5:47 pm

Benign0’s reaction to Mariatoo’s earlier posts, among others,states :
==================
Of course, but by delegating that power to REPRESENTATIVES when electing officials to the state’s LEGISLATURE, then *de fact* popular will rests on said legislative officials (i.e. our senators and congressmen).
==================

Mr. benign0, with your kind indulgence, allow me to rectify your seemingly confused view on how our government works particularly on its technical side.

If you were schooled or have resided in the Philippines, it will not escape you that ours is a democratic and a republican state as declared in the first sentence of Sec. 1 of Article II of the 1987 Constitution. Also, kindly bear in mind the tenor of the second sentence, which says: Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them.

In republican systems, there are generally two kinds of legislative power: the original and derivative. The former belongs to or possessed by the sovereign people. Whereas, the latter is that which has been delegated by the sovereign people to legislative bodies and is subordinate to the original power of the people. This is the kind of power vested in Congress ( Bernas’ Reviewer-Primer, 1997,p.213)

Ergo, it is erroneous to presume that one thing is the same as another when in truth and in fact there is a technical distinction that clearly sets the two apart.

Sometimes we should humbly accept that we are want of technical or legal expertise and it won’t hurt if we also heed one sound advice from others like buying a basic book on Philippine Government.

Fr. Bernas’ book will make a good reference material.

Happy reading then :)

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Alecks Pabico

October 25th, 2005 at 6:26 pm

Thanks for the lawyerly explanation, indio_lawless. :-)

Toro, I am quite of the same view. It has to do with citizenship. But I defer to lawyers to explain this matter. Here’s what two lawyer friends I asked said about your concern:

Our Constitution’s Bill of Rights apply to both Filipinos and aliens/foreigners though the latter can be considered as “undesirable” under our immigration laws.

There is no specific provision in the law that prohibits aliens from joining rallies. Those who are declared “undesirable” could face deportation, which is an act of sovereignty and is discretionary on the part of the State. Also, the stay of a non-resident alien is a matter of privilege and not a right. Such a privilege can be cancelled anytime provided that due process is observed (with notice and hearing).

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Timtim2

October 25th, 2005 at 7:56 pm

It’s quite obvious, VP Noli is not ready yet for The Job. Why don’t we just let GMA finish her term? Snap election won’t happen since they’re both firm with their decision not to resign.

IMHO, everything that is happening right now, even these suggestions, are part of the mind-conditioning for the people to think of other possible options that would make GMA go down or ousted from office so that those behind these propaganda may grab power.

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gagay

October 25th, 2005 at 8:02 pm

talaga Timtim2? you think that these people you are talking about who are behind these propaganda orchestrated the hello garci conversation? think about it. 😉

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Toro

October 26th, 2005 at 6:30 am

Alecks, Indio_lawless, that was enlightening, thanks very much.

Indio, you have just tickled my interest and I’m thinking aloud this question. You mentioned that according to CHR there is no basis to the Mendiola ban. Setting aside an imminent SC decison on this, I remember that the White House in Washington DC is surrounded by a security perimeter, also the air above it, and nobody is allowed to enter it. If the US govt is allowed to do it for security reasons, I wonder if the CHR is correct to say our govt cannot.

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Toro

October 26th, 2005 at 7:06 am

Mariatoo, don’t fret if you find some posts too long, and it’s not correct to say they have no place here. Just skip them if you find them too long and uninteresting. No comment is necessary. What you find uninteresting may be interesting to others. They are not written to suit you. Pithy can be as long as one can put all the essential parts to make a statement brief. It can be kilometric long and still be pithy. I think what should not be allowed is the use of trash language and to observe some civility and respect among bloggers.

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 7:33 am

indio_lawless said,
October 25, 2005 @ 5:47 pm
==========================
If you were schooled or have resided in the Philippines, it will not escape you that ours is a democratic and a republican state as declared in the first sentence of Sec. 1 of Article II of the 1987 Constitution. Also, kindly bear in mind the tenor of the second sentence, which says: Sovereignty resides in the people and all government authority emanates from them.

In republican systems, there are generally two kinds of legislative power: the original and derivative. The former belongs to or possessed by the sovereign people. Whereas, the latter is that which has been delegated by the sovereign people to legislative bodies and is subordinate to the original power of the people. This is the kind of power vested in Congress ( Bernas’ Reviewer-Primer, 1997,p.213)
==========================

I am not a lawyer of course, but like you, I beg your kind indulgence to speak in terms of principles rather than invoke the letter of the law which any legal clerk can do. In any case, I will be the first to stand corrected and admit that I err in asserting that ALL of the people’s will is delegated to congress and accept on the basis of your argument that only a subset of this constitutes the DERIVATIVE component of this power which is the power exercised by, say, the legislature.

Let’s therefore limit the scope of this discussion to the power that the people delegated to Congress to represent the public in the officiation of the IMPEACHMENT proceedings a couple of months ago that, as we know now, yielded an UNPOPULAR outcome. I believe that in this instance, this power exercised during the course of the impeachment procedure constituted a DERIVATIVE legislative power, right? (just my interpretation of what you say above). In this case, because of what has been interpreted by many in the blogging community as a “gross misrepresentation of the will of the people” as a result of this procedure, we find a huge gap between the outcome of the exercise of DERIVATIVE legislative power and the ORIGINAL power of the people.

But then you also said that the DERIVATIVE power is “subordinate” to ORIGINAL power.

So my question to you is this:

WHAT is the LEGAL and/or CONSTITUTIONAL course of action in this case considering that we are faced with a situation where the public wants to re-assert the supremacy of ORGINAL power in the face of a “flawed” exercise of DERIVATIVE power?

Might I jump the gun and propose a multiple choice for you (feel free to ignore this if you feel that the choices are too limited)

(a) Street rallies that aim to force the President out of office (if there is in fact a legal basis for this kind of handover of power)

(b) Wait for the next congressional election and vote DIFFERENT representatives into office; representatives that, by virtue of the democratic electoral proces, can exercise the DERIVATIVE power granted to them in a way that serves the interests of the people who voted them into office.

(c) Wait 12 months for another opportunity to undertake YET ANOTHER impeachment proceeding.

In the true form of the lawyer-speak that abounds in our little archipelago nation, I remain,

Very truly yours,

Non-Atty Benign0 ESQ
(extra-smooth quality) 😀

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Toro

October 26th, 2005 at 7:36 am

Gagay,

Gascon’s statement:

“When you have a presidency that violates the Constitution, when you have a presidency that stops the impeachment process, which is the preferred constitutional mode, when you have a President that violates the spirit of the Constitution about election and democracy … ultimately the options of extra-constitutional modes which are not unconstitutional become more viable.”

The last line is in contradiction. Extra constitutional options cannot be deemed constitutional. Nothing in the Constitution says that actions done outside its framework is constitutional. Viable (meaning to adopt a practical plan) perhaps but unconstitutional (illegal) just the same.

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concerned citizen

October 26th, 2005 at 7:39 am

nabasa ko sa blog dito na wala na daw sumasali sa people power kaya ang lakas ng loob ng mga pro arroyo bloggers mangantyaw. konti lang daw yung mga sumasama sa protest rally. bakit kaya? :

1. wala ng edsa na simbolo ng people power. bawal na nitong panahon ni arroyo. takot maulit yung ginawa nya kay erap. ito sana ang madaling puntahan dahil sentro ng kamaynilaan. kahit saan ka manggaling ay maaring dumaan ng edsa. easy to access. subukan kayang buksan ang edsa para sa people power baka umubra.
2. walang mag organize sa mga tao kahit man lang pamasahe at pagkain. sa panahon ngayon na halos wala na ngang makain ang tao ay uunahin pa ba ang pumunta ng rally kung kumakalam naman ang sikmura? noong panahon ng outs erap ay mga local officials ang namuno at iba pang concerned para sa mga bus at pagkain ng mga tao. eh ngayon puro tuta ni arroyo ang mga local officials(di lahat) dahil nakinabang sa mga kurakot ni arroyo. ex. agri funds.
3. kakampi ni arroyo ang mga religious org. – couples for christ, cbcp, el shadai, inc, at iba pa na member pa nga ng com-con yung isa. malaki impluwesya ng mga ito sa mga members nila.
4. walang suporta ng militar. ito ang pina kaimportante. kahit anong dami ng tao kung walang back up ng militar ay wala rin gaya ng nangyari sa edsa 3. halos napantayan ng edsa 3 ang dami ng tao noong panahon ng edsa 1. (edsa 2 konti lang pero maingay) kaso failure(edsa3) din dahil walang military back up. eh panahon na ni arroyo yun mga tuta din ni arroyo mga generals di ba?
5. takot na ang mga tao dahil nakaharang ang mga tear gas, water cannons at mga pulis na nanununtok (kahit wala pang cpr noon malala na ang harrasment sa tao). di na uso maximum tolerance ngayon.
6. pananakot ng intillegence report na may mga infiltrators daw sa rally. magulo at madugo. eh sino pang ordinaryong tao na kagaya ko ang susugod kung may gulo at patayan. siyempre tayo gusto pa rin natin ang peaceful people power gaya ng edsa 1 and 2. ito naman ang pakay natin di ba? peaceful gathering para ipahatid sa kinauukulan ang ating mga reklamo at diskuntento sa namumuno.
7. siguro yung iba ay ayaw na rin kasi wala din naman nangyari after edsa 1 & 2. ganoon pa rin. lalong naghirap ang pilipinas. lalo na itong panahon ni arroyo. pinakamalala sa lahat. grabe! di ibig sabihen porke walang people power ay ok na si arroyo? no! makikita naman sa mga surveys na bagsak na rating ni arroyo to negative.

– sensya na mga bloggers gusto ko lang i share doon sa mga nagtatanong kung bakit di na click ang people power. peace to all!

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PopsJ

October 26th, 2005 at 8:40 am

BAKIT MAY MGA PILIPINO NA HINDI KUMIKILALA SA KARANGALAN NG PILIPINO? KUNG HINDI PINOY ANG NAGSULAT NITO, MAARI PANG PALAMPASIN. Para sa iyo, tarantado! Ipagdadasal ko na lang sana mabigyan ka ng ibang lahi mula sa araw na ito.

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mariatoo

October 26th, 2005 at 8:53 am

mr toro, dont put words into my mouth. i didnt day what is or isnt interesting and i DO ignore posts like some of yours that are too long. kakapagod lang to scroll a long way down to get to the pithy comments. haay. my poor finger. haha.

long and pithy? that’s new. some of yours are just long, my dear. 😉

oh by the way, what you said about civility should apply to you too cos i distinctly remember you changing tongue in anew’s name into something not nice. you call that respect? or was that a tao lang moment? or are you siding with benign0’s kabastusan now that he seems to agree with your opinions?

popsj, i usually ignore benign0 because like what noli is becoming, benign0 is irrelevant. but irrelevant or not, mag-ingat siyang wag siyang bastos. he can argue na hindi kailangang mang-insulto at hindi mang-aasar. pero kung gusto niya ng insultuhan, then that’s what he’s going to get. 😉

kulang sa gmrc or maybe sa pansin. maybe both.

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mariatoo

October 26th, 2005 at 9:09 am

i-compare ba ang leader of the free world sa presidente ng pinas? naman. ang kakayahan ng kalaban ng kung sinuman ang nakaupo sa white house ay iba sa kakayahan ng kalaban ng occupant ng malacanang. or doesnt intelligence count for something anymore? sure, the phil president should be secure but should malacanang prepare for a 747 hurtling its way? really.

aba’y kung grenade launcher ang hawak ng rallyista engot lang ang kapulisan na di ito sasabatin. pero unarmed rallyists should be able to rally in mendiola to air their grievances. is mendiola bridge pennsylvania avenue? bp 880 says maximum tolerance. nothing at the moment justifies a change of this. unless you have justification for a deviation from the law eg cpr? i’d like to hear it.

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 9:36 am

si Maria Totoo nga naman — it’s always about who’s “kakampi” with who and what not. So indicative of the politically-wired mind of the typical Pinoy.

Tough luck, missy. You can declare irrelevant me or anyone who offends your onion-skinned sensibilities all you want. But thad does not necessarily mean you wil actually CHANGE the fact of the relevance of the facts staring you in your face.

ha ha! 😀

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mariatoo

October 26th, 2005 at 9:59 am

ooooh! i was waiting for this. engaged! haha. facts? you think your sophomoric opinions are facts, boy! too late calling me missy, my dear. it’s a clear retaliation for calling you that, totoy that you are. again, sophomoric. tsk tsk tsk.

i dont have to declare you irrelevant because you already are. i’m just stating the obvious. poor benign0-wanna-be relevant. nobody listens to you, boy? kaluoy gyud.

pinoy talaga ako. di ko ikinahihiya. but i’m not a white ass kisser like you, you turd. bastos ka. and if you think that’s what makes you better than us pinoys. go ahead! live out that fantasy.

tuloy mo pa ‘to, ok lang sa kin. i’m tireless and i have all the time in the world. 😉

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Toro

October 26th, 2005 at 10:02 am

Idagdag ko rin, Concerned citizen, ang pagkakaiba ng Edsa 1 and 2 sa nangyayari ngayon. Madaling naisagawa ang Edsa 1 and 2 na palitan ang corrupt na pangulo dahil nagkaisa ang layunin ng bayan sa pagasa na ang hahaliling pangulo ay malinis at katanggaptanggap.

Sumuporta ang bayan sa militar nuong Edsa 1 dahil nagkaisa ang layunin at damdamin. Sumuporta naman ang militar sa Edsa 2 sa ganoon ding dahilan. Nabuwag ang mahigpit na hawak ni Erap sa militar at PNP ng ang mga pinuno nito (AFP Chief of Staff Reyes and PNP chief Lacson) nadala sa pressure ng naghihimagsik na bayan.

Sa ngayon, si GMA ay bumaba na ang acceptability sa bayan na nangangahulugang maraming tao ang nawalan na ng tiwala. Gaya ng tanong mo, bakit tila wala pa ring suporta ang people power?

Sa aking palagay nagkakaisa nga ang damdamin ng bayan sa pagpapalit ng pamunuan subalit hindi nagkakaisa ang bayan sa kung sino ang mamumuno at mga kasamahan nito, at ang uri ng pamunuan na magaganap dahil sa naglipana ang mga taong dati ng kinasuklaman ng bayan na ngayon ay nagsasamantala ng para silay ay makabalik sa paghahari. Isaisahin mo sila.

Maging ang religious hindi magkasundo at pati rin ang big business. Ito’y dapat bigyan pansin sapagkat napakalaki ng salita or influence ng grupong ito na makapagpapasunod ng direction.

Di tulad ng Edsa 1 and 2, alam at gusto ng bayan ang hahaliling pangulo, ngunit sa ngayon tila malabo dahil sa iba’t iba ang nais na isulong at hindi malinaw kung magiging maganda ang patutunguhan.

I have said this many times before in this blog only a military intervention can make people power work successfully. The most violent and bloody protest rally yet was the May 1, 2001 when the Erap loyalists stormed Malacanang. The military stopped them cold. It will be a bloody mess if anyone tries to fight the military with sticks and stones. The protest organizers are doing it all wrong. They need the military support not fight them. Make ligaw to them.

The people are not outraged enough to gather the whole length and breadth of Edsa, but when that happens the pressure on the military will be great.

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Toro

October 26th, 2005 at 10:20 am

my dear mariatoo, please don’t stress yourself reading my long ones, in fact, I have one right up there. But I wrote it not for you. It will be too stressful for your health so just skip it first chance you see my name toro. okey?

As regards to what I said about tongue_in anew, don’t you get its meaning when those words are addressed to you or to whoever reads his post is like calling you in such devious and offensive way “..tang ina ninyo”? Didn’t you feel offended? I guess not. Sorry.

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 10:20 am

mariatoo said,
October 26, 2005 @ 9:59 am
==========================
ooooh! i was waiting for this. engaged! haha. facts? you think your sophomoric opinions are facts, boy! too late calling me missy, my dear. it’s a clear retaliation for calling you that, totoy that you are. again, sophomoric. tsk tsk tsk.

i dont have to declare you irrelevant because you already are. i’m just stating the obvious. poor benign0-wanna-be relevant. nobody listens to you, boy? kaluoy gyud.

pinoy talaga ako. di ko ikinahihiya. but i’m not a white ass kisser like you, you turd. bastos ka. and if you think that’s what makes you better than us pinoys. go ahead! live out that fantasy.

tuloy mo pa ‘to, ok lang sa kin. i’m tireless and i have all the time in the world.
==========================

Tsk tsk. Palengkera in our midst.

I don’t doubt that you have “all the time in the world” because you certainly sound like you do.

And me, bastos? Guess again. Check out your vocabulary above.

For some insight into this kind of behaviour, check out the following article written by the brilliant Michael Tan:
http://www.geocities.com/benign0/agr-disagr/8-6-modesty.html

Excerpt:
===================
I’d question those assumptions. Let’s start by looking at instances when we label Westerners as being “yabang”. I’m going to give a concrete example here, using a common story that comes from Filipinos new to the United States. They go into a store and ask the sales clerk for a certain item. The clerk checks the computer and goes, “Sorry, man, but I don’t have that in stock right now, but hey, I can order one for you if you want.”

Many Filipinos have told me variations of that story and cited them as “proof” that the Westerner is “yabang”. “Imagine,” they point out, “he’s only a clerk and he talks like he owns the store. And calling me ‘hey man’ and offering to get me the item. Yabang.”

What we see here is a misinterpretation of the clerk’s self-confidence, and typical American go-getter business attitude. When they offer to order the item for you, it’s because they know it makes good business sense, rather than have you buy from someone else.
====================

ha ha! 😀

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mariatoo

October 26th, 2005 at 10:33 am

ay ang haba naman ng i’m sure sophomoric mong tira. haha

bastos ka, boy. i’m not the first one to conclude that.

i dont have to work, my dear. so bring it on. 😉

what’s the matter benign0? walang pumapansin sa yo dyan? not white enough? o sige na nga papansinin ka na namin. dahil pilipino kami, maawain kami. 😉

palengkera? guilty!!! hehe. i love the markets all over the world. my favorite? provence and the stores in plaka.

and toro, it’s ok. it’s only my finger that gets stressed. as i’ve said i dont read your long posts anyway.

so by writing the expletive, you think you were doing what? being decent? go write your lengthy posts. my finger actually needs the exercise.

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 10:42 am

Tsk tsk, mariatoo. The more you write, the more you reveal the true nature of the underbelly of the Pinoy psyche to the world.

Thanks for your offer to “bring it on”. I might take you up on that. 😉

Here’s some more insight on this “underbelly” of the Pinoy psyche from the venerable Clarence Henderson (who I recall is white so you might be inclined to notice it more given that you equate being white to being masterful):

http://www.apmforum.com/columns/orientseas47.htm

Excerpt:
——————
After three years of writing Pearl, I am acutely aware of the risks associated with trying to write objective commentary on life as a foreigner in the Philippines. Among the factors that make me vulnerable:

– My willingness to self-disclose and propensity to free associate about sensitive issues
– My own immersion and semi-assimilation into Filipino culture and the inevitable conflicts about mixing oil and water
– A focus on the “special relationship” between the Philippines and Uncle Sam, the ex-colonial power
– The undeniable reality of my own race and cultural background
——————

It’s too bad that you are not into reading long text though. Maybe someday, blogging technology will be advanced enough to allow bloggers to present content in comics form.

Happy reading!

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Toro

October 26th, 2005 at 10:46 am

Sige na nga mariatoo galit ka na naman. Wow, init ulo mo ngayon ha. kaya wa na lang ko say. bow na lang. baka gamitan mo ko ng grenade launcher mo.

Yan ha, maikli ang post ko, pithy talaga, di ka na kailangang mag scroll
down.

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mariatoo

October 26th, 2005 at 10:51 am

go ahead benign0, make my day. and i will skim your posts for kabastusan everytime. each time you insult anybody in this blog again, i will hound you like the mad palengkera that i am and make sure the insults all go back to their source…you. 😉

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mariatoo

October 26th, 2005 at 10:55 am

hehe, toro. i’m actually enjoying this. dont worry, di ko patataasin ang blood pressure ko for stuff like this. and thanks for the pithy post!

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 10:55 am

mariatoo said,
October 26, 2005 @ 10:51 am
========
go ahead benign0, make my day. and i will skim your posts for kabastusan everytime. each time you insult anybody in this blog again, i will hound you like the mad palengkera that i am and make sure the insults all go back to their source…you.
========

By the looks of it, I already HAVE made your day. As you said previously “[you]’ve been waiting for this” (certainly spoken like a person who has “all the time in the world”). 😉

By all means please do “skim [my] posts for kabastusan”. Looking out for (as well as dishing out) bastos words seems to be your specialty anyways, right? ha ha! 😀

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mariatoo

October 26th, 2005 at 11:07 am

ay oo nga benign0, you have made my day. 😉 thanks!

yes i have all the time in the world fuera lang pag antukin ako. it’s lovely when you dont have to work, right? you get to do what you want without thinking how the bills are gonna be paid.

i only dish out when it is warranted. and in your case, it is not only warranted, it is about time. di kita tatantanan. (a la imbestigador). naks.

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 11:11 am

mariatoo said,
October 26, 2005 @ 11:07 am
===========================
ay oo nga benign0, you have made my day. thanks!

yes i have all the time in the world fuera lang pag antukin ako. it’s lovely when you dont have to work, right? you get to do what you want without thinking how the bills are gonna be paid.

i only dish out when it is warranted. and in your case, it is not only warranted, it is about time. di kita tatantanan. (a la imbestigador). naks.
===========================

Sounds like you are into drawing attention to your financial security (or shall we say, WEALTH) as well.

Hmmm, I wonder wonder why…

Oh, I forgot, Pinoy ka nga pala.

Typical.

ha ha! 😀

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mariatoo

October 26th, 2005 at 11:14 am

di ba nga sabi ko sayo pinoy nga ako. di ka lang bastos, makulit ka pa. bwahahaha.

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 11:21 am

mariatoo said,
October 26, 2005 @ 11:14 am
==================
di ba nga sabi ko sayo pinoy nga ako. di ka lang bastos, makulit ka pa. bwahahaha.
==================

By the way, what makes you think I am “bastos”?

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mariatoo

October 26th, 2005 at 11:29 am

read your past posts, my dear. yung directed sa akin lang above, kabastusan yun. you can argue all you want without being insulting. kaya marami walang respeto sa yo dito because you almost always end your posts with an insult. it takes away from the validity of your arguments.

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 11:39 am

Show me an example of how I end my posts with an “insult” then.

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indio_lawless

October 26th, 2005 at 11:49 am

Benigno posted a legal inquiry:
=======
WHAT is the LEGAL and/or CONSTITUTIONAL course of action in this case considering that we are faced with a situation where the public wants to re-assert the supremacy of ORGINAL power in the face of a “flawed” exercise of DERIVATIVE power?
=======

My response:

Hold your horses’ first, benign0. Masyado ka namang excited, dude, Stedi lang jan.You don’t need to jump a gun on me or anybody else. Bloggers here know, that you are always two steps, nay, six feet ahead. En iniweys, lits pru-sed wid awar diskusyun. Redi git sit gu!

First thing first. To understnad the consitutional law gamut, it is a must that we should have a firm grasp of the basic political principle that our state is both a republic and democratic.

As a republican state, all government authority emanates from the people and is exercised by representatives chosen by the people. Consequently, it is a must to know that we have three branches of government: the executive, the legislative and the judiciary.

Focus is particularly made to Legislative power, which is vested in Congress ( the legislative branch) and it is defined as the authority to make laws as well as to alter or repeal them. Thus, your reference to “impeachment” interfaced with my earlier ramifications on legislative power, ante to your conclusion that the botched impeachment proceeding constitutes a derivative one, is again erroneous.

Derivative legislative power has nothing to do with impeachment power per se. Likewise, an impeachment proceeding is different from an impeachment case. The High Court in Davide case once said that it would be contrary to the principle of reddendo singula singulis by equating “impeachment cases” with “impeachment proceeding.”

And oh yes, Fr. Bernas also legally opined that “in the view of the new Constitution, our state is not only a representative or republican state but also shares some aspects of direct democracy such as initiative and referendum in Article VI, sec.32 and Article XVII section 2. The word, he further opined, is also a monument to the February Revolution which re-won freedom through direct action.”

Btw, in Philippine setting, an ordinary law clerk does not do legal research nor draft a decision; he/she is relegated to doing clerical work.

Finally, back to your legal query.

In the true form of the court-speak that bustles in and out of our beautiful archipelagic state,I, therefore, cannot entertain, much less decide, hypothetical questions such as yours.

I suggest that you file a petition for declaratory relief, benign0.

And try to wish and pray that it be raffled to my sala.

Yours truly,

Judge indio_lawless, CPR
(Cool, Polite,Responsible) :)

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mariatoo

October 26th, 2005 at 11:52 am

“….If you want to solve a complex issue but are UNWILLING to understand the complexity by reading thesis-grade articulations of the issue, then sorry to say that you do belong where most of the hollow-heads belong — IN THE STREETS.

ha ha!”

hollowheads? ininsulto mo na ang mga rallyista. parang kala mo ikaw lang ang nag-iisip ah. put your b*lls where your mouth is….(actually? ewww!) harhar.

at lagi ka pang pinoy talaga etc etc. rely on the strength of your arguments. hwag kang magpatutsada. nakaka turn-off.

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mariatoo

October 26th, 2005 at 12:03 pm

o sige benign0, my dear, lunch muna ako tapos tv tapos pilates tapos dinner out. baka bukas na ako mag benign0 watch. pasensya na ha. pero next time na patutsadahan mo na naman ang kapinoyan, i’ll be there. 😉

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Alecks Pabico

October 26th, 2005 at 12:42 pm

Benigno, Mariatoo,

Reminding you both not to dwell on the personal. Your exchanges have already become off-topic. And please, Benigno, do you really need to demean others to argue your point, especially in your usual recourse to “Pinoy kasi” generalizations?

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 1:13 pm

Alecks, it’s a bit bizarre that you’d take this opportunity now to focus on my “Pinoy kasi” generalisations whilst (in the act of making a warning/reminder post) putting me in the company of another poster who has for his/her part an extensive record of liberally using foul language here not only against moi but against other posters as well.

Therefore my question is, which is more inappropriate to you: using foul language or using “Pinoy kasi” ‘generalisations’ (generalisations which I am prepared to substantiate if you require me to).

Could it be that I just happen to have such a radical view of Philippine issues that you are willing to place a greater stigma on my posts and less on the posts of a foulmouth?

Just some food for thought, direk. 😉

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 1:18 pm

indio_lawless said:
================
In the true form of the court-speak that bustles in and out of our beautiful archipelagic state,I, therefore, cannot entertain, much less decide, hypothetical questions such as yours.
================

Judge indio, speaking in my stiddiest of demeanours, I say now that I shall respect your lack of insight on the matter that I put forth. 😉

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jr_lad

October 26th, 2005 at 1:36 pm

mr benigno,
i have no problem with your opinions being posted here. infact, i even agree to some of them. i think what is wrong about your posts is your contemptuous regard toward the filipinos as if you’re just the opposite. yan ang ikinagagalit ng mga bloggers dito dahil medyo sarcastic palagi ang dating mo at nakakainsulto. idagdag pa na minamaliit mo ang kakayahan ng mga pinoy. maybe it’s your own way of challenging the pinoys to do better. reverse psychology ika nga. pero kung pagyayabang lang yan hindi naman dapat. it’s offensive to some of us here on this blog where most naman ay mga nakakaintindi kung ano ang mabuti at masamang ugali ng pinoy at kung ano dapat ang makakabuti sa bansa. hindi mo na kami kailangang gamitan pa ng ganyang strategy.
so, ingat na lang siguro sa paggigeneralise and maybe just avoid those remarks ” ang pinoy nga naman” or ” pinoy talaga” coz for sure there will be a lot of takers here. peace!

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Alecks Pabico

October 26th, 2005 at 1:37 pm

Benigno,

All I am saying is let’s not contribute to fomenting further hatred among ourselves. People do not respond to such comments uniformly. It’s best to argue in the spirit of camaraderie.

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fencesitter

October 26th, 2005 at 1:56 pm

thank you Indio_lawless, that was a hell of free education for benigno and admittedly for most of us who may have but a superficial knowledge of our laws.

alecks, its about time.

mariatoo – tama na take your siesta bugbog na sya

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jr_lad

October 26th, 2005 at 2:01 pm

toro, what i understand about extra-constitutional modes, it becomes legal when the move is successful. as what senator joker arroyo said, “edsa 2 is constitutional because we succeeded in disposing erap”. if it doesn’t succeed, then it becomes illegal or mob rule.
just my own understanding. maybe the experts here can expound this one.

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Toro

October 26th, 2005 at 2:14 pm

Mariatoo, you said to Benigno “ay ang haba naman ng i’m sure sophomoric mong tira. haha.” I’m sure you meant soporific. I don’t think there’s a sophomoric word in the dictionary.

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Alecks Pabico

October 26th, 2005 at 2:21 pm

From google:

Definitions of sophomoric on the Web:

Etymologically derived through Middle English from the Latin second-type conjugation verb “st?d?r?”, which means “to direct one’s zeal at”; hence a student is one who directs zeal at a subject. Also known as a disciple in the sense of a religious area of study,and/or in the sense of a “discipline” of learning. In widest use, student is used to mean a school or class attendee. …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophomoric

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fencesitter

October 26th, 2005 at 3:00 pm

If i may add- WORDS tool dictionary defines sophomiric as irreverent, immature, collegiate, unsophisticated.

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 3:13 pm

Alecks, no problemo. However, I respectfully ask you to hear me out:

I believe your statement that “people do not respond to such comments uniformly” can be applied to any comment for that matter.

My point is that I cannot be responsible for the way some people interpret what I say for the very same reason that a snippet of journalism should not be suppressed simply because it COULD BE interpreted by, say, the government as being “subversive”. Edsa rallyists will argue that we fought hard for the right to speak and not be afraid of how an onion-skinned government might interpret what we say (recall that the Marcos administration was so onion-skinned that it, at the height of its power, would close down any publication that even joked about its policies).

In fact the media (which is the biggest benefactor of this freedom of speech thing that so many Pinoys are such a fan of) has by far the most extensive track record of exhbiting that lack-of-responsibility I mentioned above.

So I merely apply this state of affairs in the way I conduct mine in the blogging community. If people are too onion-skinned to look beyond the sarcasm and sharp wit of my posts, then they should think twice about jumping into the fray. I dish out harsh words and get harsh words thrown back at me as well. Nothing personal (for me at least). In no instance have I resorted to the base language that a few people here resort to. Again I emphasise that in your previous “reminder” you chose to highlight my sarcasm as the greater evil compared to the foulmouthedness of the other party. Fair enough. You will note, however, that others simply tell me politely that they would rather not discuss with a person who writes the way I do. I tell them “suit yourself”. End of story.

So rather than be a fencesitter and make express what amounts to nothing more than a lukewarm assessment of what really transpired between me and this “mariatoo”, I encourage you to express a STRONGER OPINION about it and tell us who exactly you think is exhibiting BOORISH behaviour around here. If you still decide (between me and Ms. “mariatoo”) that it is ME who is being the BIGGER boor, then I shall respect your opinion as an officer of this blog. Nothing personal (the way it should ALWAYS be). 😉

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indio_lawless

October 26th, 2005 at 3:13 pm

Benign0’s recent reply to my post :
====================
Judge indio, speaking in my stiddiest (sic) of demeanours (sic), I say now that I shall respect your lack of insight on the matter that I put forth.
====================

My response :

Ikaw naman Hijo, matampuhin ka pala. I’m just trying to mimic your earlier statement mocking the entire membership of the integrated bar.

Sigue, pag-usapan natin ang earlier thesis, nay query, mo Hijo on “WHAT is the LEGAL and/or CONSTITUTIONAL course of action in this case considering that we are faced with a situation where the public wants to re-assert the supremacy of ORGINAL power in the face of a “flawed” exercise of DERIVATIVE power?”

Tapatin na kita Benigno. Di maliwanag ang tanong mo. If you have been a lawyer, I would have asked you for a “bill of particulars.”

Are you referring to the legislative power being original as well as a derivative one? If you have re-read my earlier response on how republican and democratic State like ours operate, it will not escape you on what should have been the probable answer.

Under the threat of being tagged by you as one who is “ lacking of insight”, then lets assume for the sake of discussion on what would be the proximate, if not the so-called probable answer.

Digesting the intricate legal processes on what is deemed legal and illegal in the political purview of where the Philippines is currently in, will depend entirely on the outcome of things in the near future.

Take the famous case of Estrada v. Arroyo, where the ponente, Justice Puno, in the few opening sentences, said, “ The warring personalities are important enough but more transcendental are the constitutional issues embedded on the parties’ dispute. While the significant issues are many, the jugular issue involves the relationship between the ruler and the ruled in a democracy, Philippine style.”

Interestingly, the his last few sentences of the epilogue, the good justice, in remembering Lord Bryce’s “the impatient vehemence of the majority” finally wrote: “ Rights in a democracy are not decided by the mob whose judgment is dictated by rage and not by reason. Nor are rights necessarily resolved by the power of number for in a democracy, the dogmatism of the majority is not and should never be the definition of the rule of law. If democracy has proved to be the best form of government, it is because it has respected the right of the minority to convince the majority that it is wrong. Tolerance of multiformity of thoughts, however offensive they may be, is the key to man’s progress from the cave to civilization. Let us not throw away that key just to pander to some people’s prejudice. “

There you are and hope this will enlighten you, benign0.

You owe my court, its filing fee :)

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Toro

October 26th, 2005 at 3:17 pm

Yes, Jr_lad, I believe you are right too. My point in Gascon’s statement is what I believe a contradiction when he says, “the options of extra-constitutional modes which are not unconstitutional become more viable.” To my mind, any option, constitutional or not, is viable, but to say using extra-constitutional means that are not unconstitutional, is a literal contradiction. It presupposes that he is going to do an illegal act which in the end will become legal. It’s like putting the cart before the horse. He misses the qualifying sense, that an illegal act becomes legal if the act is successful, but it becomes a crime if it fails. Anyway, it’s not worth losing sleep over it. Thanks JL.

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Toro

October 26th, 2005 at 4:33 pm

Alecks, Fencesitter thanks. Could also mean soporific which means to cause sleep, which Mariatoo probably feels reading through the blogs.

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tambuli

October 26th, 2005 at 5:20 pm

maybe we should not use the term extra constitutional, the proper term would be power of the sovereign people …. its an inherent right and i believe that the people can assert that anytime.

di dapat pinoy kasi, or pinoy nga naman, iwaksi na natin yan sa ating mentalidad, dapat pilipino ako at pinapahalagahan ko ang aking pagiging pilipino.

mabuhay!

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benign0

October 26th, 2005 at 6:59 pm

Mr. indio_lawless,

So I gather that this is pretty much the gist of your answer:

“Rights in a democracy are not decided by the mob whose judgment is dictated by rage and not by reason. Nor are rights necessarily resolved by the power of number for in a democracy, the dogmatism of the majority is not and should never be the definition of the rule of law. If democracy has proved to be the best form of government, it is because it has respected the right of the minority to convince the majority that it is wrong.”

Sounds a bit wishy-washy if you ask me. But I’ll respect it as representative of the extent of your insight nonetheless. 😉

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tongue in, anew

October 27th, 2005 at 7:17 am

Mariatoo, I have forgiven Toro without even having him ask for it. He obviously doesn’t know the story behind the nom. I started using this pseudonym at the height of the Hello Garci scandal when someone told me and the other rallyists in Makati to shut up if we didn’t have anything good to say. In my next post, I rebutted and ended: (just like what that blogger said) “If you don’t have anything good to say, put…tongue in, anew.”

To many, it reads perfectly innocent. But those who choose to trade barbs and tirades with me will get offended by the mere sight of the name. The cross-linguistic pun is very much intentional. One step ahead.

I had that spat with Art(Toro) when I came to the defense of Assumptionista (as I often do when any of the ladies here are given the rundown) but I had to cut the moment I sensed that Toro was losing it. His insights, however, are sharp and clear and though we may not agree on a few things, he is worth reading, however long his posts may be (hehe). Unlike your favorite blogger who’s now seems tempered by Alecks…and still wants to have the last word.

Peace to all.

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tongue in, anew

October 27th, 2005 at 7:34 am

Back to topic. So Noli wants to hide behind the constitution? As if they respected it in the first place. And all the other laws of the land, too, when they stole the will of the electorate.

Well, resignation, my dear Kabayan, is constitutional. So is direct action of the people.

These two choices will have to be made. Soon.

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MitaMS

October 27th, 2005 at 8:59 am

Tongue,

Resignation is a choice to be made by the individual holding the position. Even if it’s a forced resignation, it’s ultimately the individual’s choice to make. Noli and GMA already said they are not resigning. As for the direct action of the people – what is that exactly? And when is that going to happen?

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indio_lawless

October 27th, 2005 at 9:57 am

Benign0 sheepish reply to my most recent post:
============================
Mr. indio_lawless,

So I gather that this is pretty much the gist of your answer:

xxx quoting the earlier citing of cute dude moi of Justice Puno’s epilogue in Estrada v.Arroyo” xxx

Sounds a bit wishy-washy if you ask me. But I’ll respect it as representative of the extent of your insight nonetheless.
============================

My response:

I can’t blame you, hijo, if you find Justice Puno’s epilogue’s a bit wishy-washy but for your information, said decision made glue-ria’s presidency de jure.

But I can blame you for erroneously imputing such authorship to my humble moi. By said erroneously pointing that it is the” gist of my answer” to your legal query, as well as a “representative of the extent of my insight” , then, you are guilty of doing a great injustice to the Justice who penned said decision.

Good thing you are out of court’s jurisdiction, lest you will be cited for contempt. But say, by a weird chance, you end-up appearing before them, I hope you will still have the gut to even muster : “ sounds a bit wishy-washy, Justice, eh!”

As an ordinary seasoned law clerk will say to a still uninitiated lawyer :

“Get real, dude!” .

The same applies to you, benign0 :)

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benign0

October 27th, 2005 at 4:36 pm

indio_lawless said,
October 27, 2005 @ 9:57 am
=============
As an ordinary seasoned law clerk will say to a still uninitiated lawyer :

“Get real, dude!” .

The same applies to you, benign0
=============

It’s kinda bizarre in every single one of your posts you direct to me, you don’t fail to remind cute little moi about how ill-versed I am in lawyerspeak.

I’ve got news for you (in case you haven’t noticed YET): I am not a lawyer.

And that is as real as it gets.

That said, I don’t think lawyers hold a monopoly on logical debate, and neither is lawyer-speak the official language of discussion.

Stidi ka lang diyan, attorney. 😉

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indio_lawless

October 27th, 2005 at 5:53 pm

Benigno opined, in his most recent reply to my post :
=========
That said, I don’t think lawyers hold a monopoly on logical debate, and neither is lawyer-speak the official language of discussion.
=========

My equally amused rebuttal:

Hahaha! ROTFLMAO !

Relax lang benign0, ang cute mo pala mag-react sa sariling reflection mo.

Don’t be too onion-skinned amigo. It doesn’t suit you.

In the first place, who said “lawyers hold a monopoly on logical debate?” And who advanced that “legalese should be the official language of discussion?”

Don’t point your finger at me, Hijo. I am not the culprit neither the author of the “crime”.

If you care enough to trace the historical account of our informal debate, it will dawn upon you that, I’m trying to help you understand how the Philippine legal system works as well as slowly introducing you to the gamut of constitutional law, to aid you craft your arguments in such a way that you will not appear moronic, or worst a legal obtuse.

Consider this, how can you validly argue on something technical when all you know is to generalize? Or your knowledge of some legal principles seems to contradict, if not, turns-out to be the exact opposite of the other.

It’s just so happened that you do not have the expertise to jump into a legal skirmish, thus, do not fault lawyers to skin you out nor blame them to educate you on legal matters.

To get real, is to acknowledge our own individual weaknesses.

Ergo, your commonly used phrase “ stidi ka lang diyan”, should be nailed right in your forehead to stress the fact that it aptly applies to yourself, benign0.

Pasaway ka, ESQ. :)

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benign0

October 27th, 2005 at 6:16 pm

Mr indio_lawless,

If you recall right, my original question was not about “understand[ing] how the Philippine legal system works” but rather to seek enlightenment on what is legal or not.

To wit:
==========
“WHAT is the LEGAL and/or CONSTITUTIONAL course of action in this case considering that we are faced with a situation where the public wants to re-assert the supremacy of ORGINAL power in the face of a “flawed” exercise of DERIVATIVE power?”
==========
Refer to comment at: http://www.pcij.org/blog/?p=458#comment-14747

A policeman can explain to the average citizen without resorting to legalese what options available are legal or not. 😉

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tomas tinio

October 28th, 2005 at 3:48 am

Makasali na nga ako, kahit na bilang isang miron. Gusto ko lang tanungin ng deretsahan si benignO: 1) Are you Pinoy by ethnicity, even in part? 2) And more important, do you consider yourself Pinoy? Dalawang tanong lang yan, parehong yes-or-no ang answer. Just curious.

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indio_lawless

October 28th, 2005 at 9:21 am

Benign0, in his most sheepishly crafted response to date, wrote :
=================
A policeman can explain to the average citizen without resorting to legalese what options available are legal or not
=================

Mister Benign0:

Are you getting enough sleep recently, Hijo?

Maliwanag pa sa sinag ng mga nilalabhan sa TIDE ang gross ignorance of the law mo, Hijo.

Did I get you right that a policeman can explain to the average citizen without resorting to legalese WHAT OPTIONS AVAILABLE ARE, LEGAL OR NOT ?

ROTFLMAO ! Heavens of all heavens, Benigno! Are you going nuts?

For your information Hijo, that’s the work or function of a lawyer. Unless, again with your patently smart-alecky attitude, you will presumably retort confidently: “ Abogado naman yung pulis, eh!”

Hijo, Police work is in enforcement of laws. Lawyering is another thing.
If you want to know your legal options, kumuha ka ng abogado, mapa-Pinas ka man or sa Sudan.

And going back to your legal query for the nth time,
kindly re-visit my previous posts especially dedicated to your education. The answer is within your bounds of your computer screen.

In tagalog,nandoon ang sagot, Hijo.

Don’t tell me you need to be spoon-feed?

Sayang naman ang iyong “intellectual superiority” kung ganun.
Bawas pogi points yun, Hijo.

ESQ ka nga. Extra Super Quo-leet :)

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benign0

October 28th, 2005 at 12:47 pm

Kawawa naman si indio_lawless. There is nothing more poignant than the sight of a person imprisoned by a frame of mind developed over long years in the practice of a profession that has contributed greatly to the hindrance of progress in the Philippines.

As the eminent Greg Sheridan wrote in his book *Asian Values Western Dreams*:

“In Japan there are very few lawyers and the codes are mostly unwritten, but they are binding, nonetheless.”

Check out the following article for the context with which I quote the above brilliant observation:
http://www.getrealphilippines.com/solution/trust.html

Again my question is quite simple (and I repeat it below to refresh your memory). I do notice that you seem to be so trapped in the legalese that clouds your mind that you are unable to answer such a simple question with a simple answer (which is probably the reason why our legal system is so clogged up and convoluted, because it is peopled and operated by characters such as yourself):

===============
WHAT is the LEGAL and/or CONSTITUTIONAL course of action in this case considering that we are faced with a situation where the public wants to re-assert the supremacy of ORGINAL power in the face of a “flawed” exercise of DERIVATIVE power?

Might I jump the gun and propose a multiple choice for you (feel free to ignore this if you feel that the choices are too limited)

(a) Street rallies that aim to force the President out of office (if there is in fact a legal basis for this kind of handover of power)

(b) Wait for the next congressional election and vote DIFFERENT representatives into office; representatives that, by virtue of the democratic electoral proces, can exercise the DERIVATIVE power granted to them in a way that serves the interests of the people who voted them into office.

(c) Wait 12 months for another opportunity to undertake YET ANOTHER impeachment proceeding.
===============

Maybe the next time a street mob takes to the streets, you should tell them to consult a lawyer first so that they will be enlightened on the legality of their endeavour. 😉

Once more with feeling, tatang.

Regards,
your “Hijo” 😀

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indio_lawless

October 28th, 2005 at 1:07 pm

Mas kawawa ka benign0.

Your moronic comments and insights showed how little you know about the Philippine Governmental System.

Next time, try to avail the scholarship offered by UP College of Law, sayang ka bata.

With more feeling than your usual buffonic feelic, Hijo :

Magpakatotoo ka, BenignO :)

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indio_lawless

October 28th, 2005 at 1:15 pm

Erratum : feelic should read feeling. ” your usual buffonic feeling” :)

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benign0

October 28th, 2005 at 1:52 pm

indio_lawless said,
October 28, 2005 @ 1:07 pm
==================
Mas kawawa ka benign0.

Your moronic comments and insights showed how little you know about the Philippine Governmental System.

Next time, try to avail the scholarship offered by UP College of Law, sayang ka bata.

With more feeling than your usual buffonic feelic, Hijo :

Magpakatotoo ka, BenignO
==================

So much for that. I guess this last post of yours completes your rather amusing slide to belat-style argumentation.

Typical.

Stidi ka lang diyan, tatang at baka atakihin ka ng hi-blood. 😉

Yours truly,
“Hijo” 😀

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indio_lawless

October 28th, 2005 at 2:09 pm

Benign0, records will bear who between us is resorting to belat-style of argumentation.

How could you argue intelligently when in the first place you don’t even know the difference between a legislative power and executive power? You also failed miserably to comprehend the concept of an original legislative power vis-a-vis the derivative one.

Try to scroll upwards, the answers to these are there for you to digests as well as to your equally idiotic legal query, which, the formulation shows how legally obtuse is the author.

Typical buffoonic character : outlandish if not pompously unreal :)

Magpaka-totoo ka, bata :)

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benign0

October 28th, 2005 at 4:47 pm

Mr. indio_lawless,

Show a specific example where I demonstrate my ignorance of “the difference between a [sic] legislative power and executive power”. 😉

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indio_lawless

October 28th, 2005 at 5:24 pm

Benigno, in trying to sooth his bruised ego, requested:
================
Show a specific example where I demonstrate ( sic) my ignorance of “the difference between a [sic] legislative power and executive power”.
================

Sure, Bata, to refresh your demented mind, here it goes:

First, On October 25, 2005 @ 1:56 pm, Mariatoo, who wrote : “sabi nga ni fr bernas, ultimate power resides in the people. kung magdesisyon ang tao na ayaw na nila si gloria, legal yon.”

You, benigno, pompously replied; “ Of course, but by delegating that power to REPRESENTATIVES when electing officials to the state’s LEGISLATURE, then *de fact* popular will rests on said legislative officials (i.e. our senators and congressmen).”

Second, on October 27, 2005 @ 7:33 am .After I called your attention and explaining to you the legislative power ramifications ; you replied off-tangently, by trying to appear innocent : “ In any case, I will be the first to stand corrected and admit that I err in asserting that ALL of the people’s will is delegated to congress and accept on the basis of your argument that only a subset of this constitutes the DERIVATIVE component of this power which is the power exercised by, say, the legislature.”

Third, on the same date, but of different time (October 27, 2005 @ 6:16 pm) You again replied : A policeman can explain to the average citizen without resorting to legalese what options available are legal or not.

Bata, accept that you are legally obtuse, wag ka ng humirit ng pabalang dahil you know the fact that you are legally incompetent.

Get real. walk the talk, bata :)

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tj

October 28th, 2005 at 6:42 pm

dami na talagang naiisip ang mga oposisyon and critics of PGMA pero bakit kaya wala pa rin silang magawa to oust PGMA… kasi paulit ulit na yung mga binibigay nilang option like yung snap elections.. adn mr.noli still cant make it to the top dahil pag ginawa niya ang bumaligtad kay PGMA.. pgma’s allies adn solons will also make black propaganda’s to oust noli.. kaya ang mangyyari mpaulit ulit na lang.. siraan at tanggalan sa posisyon lahat. how are we filipinos now?

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benign0

October 28th, 2005 at 6:46 pm

Mr. indio_lawless,

So what part of the above demonstrates my ignorance of the difference between “a” legislative power and executive power? I believe I limit the above to a discussion pertaining only to the legislature.

Unless of course you failed understand exactly what I am saying in those snippets of text that you quoted.

For that matter, let me make a bit of an observation: You seem to be good at quoting text but are quite thin on weaving a CONTEXT around what you quote.

Tsk tsk.

Once more with feeling tatang.

Regards,
“Bata” 😀

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easyernie

October 29th, 2005 at 11:04 pm

back to topic tayo: Many Filipinos have underestimated Noli. We heard political analysts and plain political observers saying they foresee the VP as a goner once GMA is ousted from office. Sorry, but I believe that he is smarter than the rest of us.

His recent pronouncement that he would only stick to the constitutional option for change is another smart move on his part. He knows that he is the constitutional successor of GMA in case latter is booted out. Why then should he take the risk of playing to the script and tune of the Hyatt 10 and the likes who have displayed their amateurism in seizing state power when given the chance last July. Besides, business people, the silent majority, the men and women in arms and the rest of conservatives prefer the constitutional option rather than an adventure over which they have no control.

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Toro

October 31st, 2005 at 11:11 am

Yes, Easyernie, Noli is being underestimated too much by the BWM. They have no room for him in their planned script. He cannot take over even if Gloria resigns. All he can do is call for a snap election and his job is finished. I just wonder if BMW will do this to Loren if Loren were in Noli’s place.

Medyo mataas kasi ang pinagaralan ng mga BWM, sa UP, Ateneo, etc. at may mga masters degree pa. Si Noli, FEU lang yata o UE at news reader lang daw. Mababa din daw ang grades, conditioned pa. No MA or PhD degree. Mahina pa daw sa English. Kawawang Kabayan, lubos na hinamak. Worry ng iba si Gabby lang daw ang maghahari pag nakaupo na si Noli. Eh, di bahala si Noli kung gusto niyang maligo ng walang katapusang batikos at mabugbog ng walang humpay na mura 24/7.

I could not forget as a young man how Ramon Magsaysay was also ridiculed, often referred pejoratively as a lowly “truck mechanic only”. To prove he did not possess the intellectual mind to be president, his detractors produced his low grades from Jose Rizal College where he obtained a Commerce degree. Anyway, Magsaysay moved on to be President. Well, what do you know. This simple truck mechanic became the legendary President who became the pride of the poor and deeply loved by his own people.

Fight on Kabayan you are the elected VP. Do it. Pull a Magsaysay too. This much I can say. If Noli’s detractors did not mind voting for FPJ, who unlike Noli had no govt service experience, why doubt Noli’s competence to prove himself just as Magsaysay did?

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indio_lawless

November 2nd, 2005 at 10:23 am

On 28 October 05, after I left for my vacation, Benigno replied with now evident bruised ego :
==============
So what part of the above demonstrates my ignorance of the difference between “a” legislative power and executive power? I believe I limit the above to a discussion pertaining only to the legislature.
Unless of course you failed understand exactly what I am saying in those snippets of text that you quoted.
You seem to be good at quoting text but are quite thin on weaving a CONTEXT around what you quote.
==============

My reply.

Bata, are you wearing reading glasses ? I suggests that you get one and try to re-read finely for the nth time my previous posts which were primarily dedicated to you in this blog, bata :)

While I have stressed and re-stressed the important points that you have missed on the basis of your sheer ignorance of how our government works, you, in your un-benign self, kept on unnecessary repeating with infuriating monotony said sheer ignorance. Can’t blame you, if you are that hard headed literally.

In the same vain that I cannot also blame you if you have a penchant to be spoon-fed; thus, my re-offering of a law scholarship at UP for you to grab.

As to your “bill of particulars”, the answers are again in the screen. But this time, I will not delve into specific details where you have failed to intelligently rebut for reasons which are anchored on your incompetence or lack of expertise of the matter at quo.

And if ever there was/were a rebutta/sl, it probably failed to merit my attention for being too ambiguous as to make head or tail of what you are trying to rebut.

Do I need to say more?

Oh yes, all these hullabaloo of your own creation, makes you utterly unconvincing.

Magpaka-totoo ka benigno :)

Harapin mo ang katotohanan :)

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benign0

November 4th, 2005 at 8:42 am

Mr. indio_lawless,

Suit yourself.

ha ha! 😀

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OpenUpUrMind

November 6th, 2005 at 2:49 pm

The Elite [aka industrialists/financial oligarchs] refuses to raise the pay of their workers… these workers can’t provide their children good education… reaching voting age… uneducated voters choosing blindly their candidates during election… winning candidates grateful to their financiers – the Elite. This is the “Circle of Life” we seem to have. And how to change this?

The New Government, if ever there will be, should for a start:
– Defer Debt Payments [foreign & domestic], say 3 to 5 years
? Prime pump economy by investing on massive infrastructure projects; airport for tourism, seaport for industry, quality roads and highways, train & railways, etc.
? Nuclear Technology has reach its maturity. Investing on Nuclear Power today is probably the best option vs. oil driven AC Power generators. Japan has 30+ nuclear plants and look at how their economy has grown over these years.
– Increase minimum wage up 2x minimum
? Increasing their income 2-fold increases buying power… increases production… increases employment… and so on.
– Eliminate Income Tax on ordinary employees; VAT is enough
? For a long time, business sector controls more than 80% of the economy. It’s only just to ask more from them.
– Depopulate urban centers by relocating industries near it’s raw material sources; must refrain from allowing raw materials [copper, iron, etc.] to leave the country
– Tourism is the Key: We not only have WOW Philippines; It’s Paradise Islands!
? Promote tourism by increasing the level of domestic security thru Volunteerism NOT military oppression
– Invest on Science Research & Technology
? Support technology research on water [hydrogen]-fueled engines;
– Modernize farming methods thru use of machines not people

This time the Elite must give in. Or they will perish too!

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tambuli

November 6th, 2005 at 7:19 pm

openupurmind,

i agree with some of your points, but i strongly disagree with wage increase, what we need to do is to keep prices down, wage increase is inflationary, its a cycle that will never end, increase wages, production cost also increases, prices of commodities also increase, sometimes the effect is exponential.

what do we do to keep prices down? to increase purchasing power of the peso? … here are some suggestions, keep interest rates down, if the banks can keep it down, more SMEs can avail of bank loans; keep cost of utilities down, try to find ways to keep the cost of electricity down because power comprise at least 20% of the cost of production; the government should set up safety nets and protection of SMEs, make them strong first before letting them loose in the world market; do not peg the peso solely to the dollar, make use of other currencies like the euro and yen; local governmetn should make simple the conduct of business, eliminate red tape because that is where corruption begins, just imagine now, to have a paper signed, you have to go thru at least 5 signatures with under the table, otherwise your paper will just there and gather dust.

instead of VAT, we should return to the old system of sales tax, its very straight forward, no need to compute for input and output, just a percentage of the gross, not much loopholes there unlike VAT where big business can even make extra profit on.

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indio_lawless

November 7th, 2005 at 12:41 pm

Mr. benign0 in his belat-style of argumentation finally wrote :
============
Mr. indio_lawless,

Suit yourself.
============

My soothing reponse :

Suit yourself, more.

Hohohohoho :)

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indio_lawless

November 7th, 2005 at 12:46 pm

Erratum : “My soothing reponse” should read : my soothing reSponse.

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